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Post by ariktaranis on Feb 26, 2020 12:34:47 GMT
Has this ever been made or would this ever be considered?
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Post by andyskinner on Feb 26, 2020 13:24:17 GMT
What specifically are you looking for? Do you mean the Mantic sci-fi game? I remember thinking that the smaller version of Warpath (I forget name) had a lot in common with GF, but I think that was before OPA switched the Defense rules to what they are now.
Do you need anything more than army lists that reflect those figures? I would not think that specific game mechanics need to be replicated.
andy
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Post by ariktaranis on Feb 26, 2020 13:38:03 GMT
What specifically are you looking for? Do you mean the Mantic sci-fi game? I remember thinking that the smaller version of Warpath (I forget name) had a lot in common with GF, but I think that was before OPA switched the Defense rules to what they are now. Do you need anything more than army lists that reflect those figures? I would not think that specific game mechanics need to be replicated. andy I really like how the attack and damage mechanism works. So roll to hit, roll to damage rather than roll to hit, roll to save. I also like how vehicles are portrayed and how you have to have armour piercing weapons to damage them. |
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Post by onepagerules on Feb 26, 2020 14:38:17 GMT
It's funny because I was actually on the design team for Warpath, and wasn't too satisfied as to how that game turned out.  In any case, like Andy said we used to have a system that was similar to what Mantic uses for KoW/WP, but we changed it because it got too confusing for players. |
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Post by ariktaranis on Feb 26, 2020 15:25:19 GMT
It's funny because I was actually on the design team for Warpath, and wasn't too satisfied as to how that game turned out. In any case, like Andy said we used to have a system that was similar to what Mantic uses for KoW/WP, but we changed it because it got too confusing for players. Oh wow! I really enjoy playing 2.0 of Warpath (although I do prefer grimdark future over any other tabletop game I've ever played) Is there any links for the old one page rules anywhere in the net so I can have a little play with them? |
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Post by onepagerules on Feb 26, 2020 16:28:44 GMT
Personally I thought that both WP 1.0 and 2.0 were great games, and they should've never been killed off. I think the wargaming scene as a whole would be better off today if both of those games were still alive, especially WP 1.0 which was probably the most unique 28mm mass battle sci-fi wargame out there. When developing WP 3.0 the original thought was that there would only be 1 ruleset, so the focus was on building that, however when things started going south the decision was made to split the game into 2 different rulesets instead. At that point I honestly think they should've just slightly re-worked WP 1.0 and 2.0 and release those games as the 2 parts of WP 3.0. --- Anyway, there is a mirror of the OPR games form before 2017 which you can find here: www.mattcaron.net/opr_mirror, but those are still from when units only had 1 stat. I don't think there's any remnants of the rules with the "reverse" defense values anywhere right now. If you want you could always try to hack it yourself: - All defense values need to be reversed so that 2+ is the worst and 6+ is the best. - The units with Def 6+ and Tough first halve their Tough value, and then get Def +1 for every Tough(3) that they have. - Finally when in combat if a unit has Def 7+ after any modifiers, then you must roll a 6+ followed by a 4+ to deal wounds. So for example a regular tank would go from Def 6+ / Tough(12) to having Def 8+ / Tough(6), whilst a titan would go from Def 6+ / Tough(24) to having Def 10+ / Tough(12). The biggest problem you'll have is that the Deadly(3/6) rule would suddenly be way more powerful, so you'd need to lower it to 2/4, or maybe make it a D3/D6 roll. Hope this makes sense!  |
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Post by andyskinner on Feb 26, 2020 16:38:25 GMT
I liked it in One Page Rules, too. I still enjoy the current games, but I'll admit to nostalgia for what I think had more flexibility and flavor. Every now and then I need to remind myself I'm not the primary audience for OPR. I do prefer simple games, and don't care for most games having lots of special rules and focusing on flavor so much that you can't use them for anything else. But several choices in the current OPR games reflect that they are intended to be accessible to people with zero gaming experience. That's good, even if it isn't me. And I get some of that back with the point calculator. andy |
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Post by ariktaranis on Feb 26, 2020 22:25:45 GMT
Personally I thought that both WP 1.0 and 2.0 were great games, and they should've never been killed off. I think the wargaming scene as a whole would be better off today if both of those games were still alive, especially WP 1.0 which was probably the most unique 28mm mass battle sci-fi wargame out there. When developing WP 3.0 the original thought was that there would only be 1 ruleset, so the focus was on building that, however when things started going south the decision was made to split the game into 2 different rulesets instead. At that point I honestly think they should've just slightly re-worked WP 1.0 and 2.0 and release those games as the 2 parts of WP 3.0. --- Anyway, there is a mirror of the OPR games form before 2017 which you can find here: www.mattcaron.net/opr_mirror, but those are still from when units only had 1 stat. I don't think there's any remnants of the rules with the "reverse" defense values anywhere right now. If you want you could always try to hack it yourself: - All defense values need to be reversed so that 2+ is the worst and 6+ is the best. - The units with Def 6+ and Tough first halve their Tough value, and then get Def +1 for every Tough(3) that they have. - Finally when in combat if a unit has Def 7+ after any modifiers, then you must roll a 6+ followed by a 4+ to deal wounds. So for example a regular tank would go from Def 6+ / Tough(12) to having Def 8+ / Tough(6), whilst a titan would go from Def 6+ / Tough(24) to having Def 10+ / Tough(12). The biggest problem you'll have is that the Deadly(3/6) rule would suddenly be way more powerful, so you'd need to lower it to 2/4, or maybe make it a D3/D6 roll. Hope this makes sense! I've never played warpath 1.0 but have the rules and it looks like fun too. I have been having some solo games of 2.0 and it's good fun. Although I think GF takes the best parts of it (mainly the simplicity) and makes a better game overall. If they'd kept up with a game like 1.0 or 2.0 I think they could have refined it down to something brilliant. I read somewhere they changed 3.0 to try to please vocal 40k fans? If so, big mistake cause a big part of that fan base is never happy! Haha Ha! Now you've explained how to hack it I think I'll just keep it as is because I don't think GF needs much changed  |
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Post by ariktaranis on Feb 26, 2020 22:34:04 GMT
I liked it in One Page Rules, too. I still enjoy the current games, but I'll admit to nostalgia for what I think had more flexibility and flavor. Every now and then I need to remind myself I'm not the primary audience for OPR. I do prefer simple games, and don't care for most games having lots of special rules and focusing on flavor so much that you can't use them for anything else. But several choices in the current OPR games reflect that they are intended to be accessible to people with zero gaming experience. That's good, even if it isn't me. And I get some of that back with the point calculator. andy I can't stand games with hundreds of special rules many of which are the same but with different names to add flavour. I get flavour from my imagination and what's happening on the board. I think OPR is my favourite game because of its simplicity which at the same time leaves a huge amount of freedom. But yeah, the beauty of this game is it's accessibility. |
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Post by onepagerules on Feb 26, 2020 23:54:18 GMT
What happened was that Mantic thought the reason why WP never caught on was because WP 1.0 was too abstract for players, and WP 2.0 was too similar to 40k for players.
So then the original briefing with WP 3.0 was to make something that would allow massive battles to be played quickly, competing with GW at the Apocalypse scale, rather than at the regular 40k scale. Basically, they wanted something like WP 1.0, but that didn't alienate 40k players with its abstraction.
What followed was that instead of hiring Alessio again (who had made KoW and the first two WP games), they decided to hand off the development of the game to a "design committee" made up of volunteers, under the supervision of their games director/producer (don't remember the actual title). Honestly I found that to be a fairly shady practice, but whatever.
Anyway so then WP 3.0 basically turned into the director/producer's baby, and he re-made Epic in 28mm, with some dubious modifications.
It took literal years before this new version of WP was shown off to the public, which honestly should've been done in just a few months, and the backlash was bad. People didn't like the mechanics of the game, so Mantic was kind of back at square one.
Not wanting to waste the amount of time and effort that went into making WP 3.0, and honestly more than anything it was the director/producer that didn't want to admit that his baby was not a very popular game, Mantic decided to hire yet somebody else to make a version of WP which was closer to 40k.
Aaand here we are now, Mantic is left with two versions of the game which nobody really likes, and they (understandably) would rather put their efforts into the games that people actually are playing. No saying what the future holds, but I wouldn't be surprised if they never work on WP again, or make yet another complete overhaul.
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Post by khazil on Feb 27, 2020 8:12:55 GMT
What happened was that Mantic thought the reason why WP never caught on was because WP 1.0 was too abstract for players, and WP 2.0 was too similar to 40k for players. So then the original briefing with WP 3.0 was to make something that would allow massive battles to be played quickly, competing with GW at the Apocalypse scale, rather than at the regular 40k scale. Basically, they wanted something like WP 1.0, but that didn't alienate 40k players with its abstraction. What followed was that instead of hiring Alessio again (who had made KoW and the first two WP games), they decided to hand off the development of the game to a "design committee" made up of volunteers, under the supervision of their games director/producer (don't remember the actual title). Honestly I found that to be a fairly shady practice, but whatever. Anyway so then WP 3.0 basically turned into the director/producer's baby, and he re-made Epic in 28mm, with some dubious modifications. It took literal years before this new version of WP was shown off to the public, which honestly should've been done in just a few months, and the backlash was bad. People didn't like the mechanics of the game, so Mantic was kind of back at square one. Not wanting to waste the amount of time and effort that went into making WP 3.0, and honestly more than anything it was the director/producer that didn't want to admit that his baby was not a very popular game, Mantic decided to hire yet somebody else to make a version of WP which was closer to 40k. Aaand here we are now, Mantic is left with two versions of the game which nobody really likes, and they (understandably) would rather put their efforts into the games that people actually are playing. No saying what the future holds, but I wouldn't be surprised if they never work on WP again, or make yet another complete overhaul. I DID wonder why KOW had so much attention and the closest thing their Sci Fi universe had was "Well...we put alot of effort into Dreadball?". Honestly though ? The reason people weren't playing Warpath originally was because it didnt have Army lists for 40k stuff and their og plastics for Warpath were pretty bad. They were just the fantasy sprues recut with guns |
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Post by onepagerules on Feb 27, 2020 8:30:19 GMT
I think there were a LOT of factors as to why WP 1.0 / 2.0 didn't do too well, and probably if they had run a KS campaign early to produce a proper miniatures line the game could've taken off. Now it sucks because simply due to all these past failures it's going to be really hard for them to pivot as players don't have faith in them.
Honest to god one day we're going to tweak the old WP 1.0 rules and released them as a stand-alone rulebook. That game really deserves more love, and I can't believe many players will never get to try it because it was killed off so early.
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Post by ariktaranis on Feb 27, 2020 9:34:03 GMT
Honest to god one day we're going to tweak the old WP 1.0 rules and released them as a stand-alone rulebook. That game really deserves more love, and I can't believe many players will never get to try it because it was killed off so early. This would be sooooo good. Would you do it as a OPR or would it be done with Mantic? Because either way I'd be getting knees deep in that. |
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Post by onepagerules on Feb 27, 2020 14:30:32 GMT
No, that would become a mess real quick and only cause unwanted issues. Instead what we could do is make a game that is inspired by it and uses similar mechanics, but we would have our own take on the system, with our own armies, missions, advanced rules, etc.
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Post by ariktaranis on Feb 27, 2020 14:51:58 GMT
To be honest I think a whole new take using similar mechanics would be better. Even more so if it in a Grimdark setting.
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