Age of Fantasy: Battalions

[Lagi]

Every round need to have a random start. [like andyskinner write before]

otherwise player is trying to limit the number of troops. Being able to start each round is a huge bonus.
weaker units are even less attractive to include in army list
There are odd gambits, like not finishing opponents unit, to not allow him to start next round.
Its less thinking about Meta gameplay "if i sacriface this unit, i would start next round, and charge this blokes overthere"

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dwarf demon slayer [berserker lord]:
he need to have Slayer(2) - +2AP. otherwise he is underperforming vs giants who by default have max Defense (5). Still Great Weapon would be usefull.

I would remove Ethereal(1) - ward save 1. I think this could be granted by common, global items for Heroes. Parry (-1 be hit in melee) work much better as "keeping alive" mechanism, and if not well... he cost about 70 points a fair price, compare to 200 for some monsters.

Upgrades: change pair weapons for greatweapons; and demon slayer can have options for +Fear.

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crossbow and rifle with 5 attack are better. -1 hit after move, for crossbow is sufficient.
for the rifles no move and fire... im not sure if allowing todo pivot is ok?

Rangers have Strider rule, which was interesting because it allow them to do a corner charge without hit penalty.

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i need to test Rune of Storm spell next time, it doesnt look balanced.

[Lagi]

Dark elves - i gave them First Strike if charging.

First Strike doesn't do much if you flank target. Because it would anyway strike back with half attacks. Something with Flank rules could be improved, to feel the impact of FirstStrike also when flanking the opponent.

Spell range of 12" was way too short. I change default range to 18". There is big niche for spells with long range, that dont need LoS. I try some global spells, but they are quite boring. once you cast them, you are limited with the number of spells (because there is no point casting twice the same global enchantment).

Regeneration - i have Hydra. Current Regeneration is very weak. Because it maybe yes, maybe not [if you get charged] heal you 1 wound. I will try to buff regeneration by always healing 1 when you spent activation (even if flanked?).

Poison and Poison(x) - are different rules. I think i need to invent another name for Poison(x).

Flee should be clarified, what unit do if it's too close to table edge, or should end move at other units.

Artillery piece need to pivot, if they dont shoot.
Clarify all spells are shooting attacks.
Clarify with Nimble you can charge or shoot, previously out of LoS target.
clarify Slayer dont work against Cavalry or Chariots
clarify that Impacts are NOT first strike.
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dwarf Rune Of Storm - target tough number of hits, that wound on successful Def - go out of window. A complete nonsensical rule.
now its 48", no LoS, d6 hits with AP(1).

Dark Elves are squishy [def 2], but cripple victims [First Strike if charging]. More attacks than standard armies (crossbows, pair weapons).

Corsair has ethereal to cover their dragon cloaks.
Raptor Knights has 10 impacts, and different 10 attacks when not charging, which is nice.
Slaughter sisters - are very good for what they suppose to be. Good in melee, but dont hit hard (no AP).
Medusa is an interesting shooter unit. Morale Save instead Defense roll.
hydra suffer from lack of good regeneration.
Raptor chariot is little off... hmm its a glass cannon charger, that was killed by alone Hero, after chariot in 1 turn wipe out infantry block. Thrown javelins is a nice touch.

Spells: Despair i add morale test to make unit flee, so its not only morale nerf. i test Darkness as global spell, but i learn to drop completely any battle wide enchants. Blade storm - not sure if 2d6 would not be too good (its average 7 hits).

[Lagi]

another dwarfs vs d.elves

if you are flanked, and dont have activation - you dont strike back

this rule nicely make characters flank charge "safe", without regiments retaliation vs poor commander with 3hp. If you make some tricky charge, then its not so penalizing, because you still hit back with half attacks. And gang ups vs 1 strong unit are more interesting, because he probably dont strike back at flanking unit.

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pair weapons +2 attacks are great to improve unit-half attacks - from 5 to 7.

Corsairs need to have 3 Quality (not 4). they are even core troops in WHM. With pair weapons they land hit waay too often.

chariot - i am very on the fence, how to solve this one. I think chariot is overpriced in OPR.
5x cold one knights - have 10 impacts - 5x from lizards and 5x from lances. 1x chariot has 8x - from 2x lizards, and scythe blades on 2x wheels.... something doesnt feels right here. Single chariot charge with 8x autohits, completely annihilate core regiments.
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it should be 6x impacts on charge. if not charging its: 2x bites from lizards, 2x attacks from crew. as range attack its 2x javelin shoots.
Now for Tough (6 Tough in OPR): line of 5x knighst has 5 toughness - 5 wounds. Doesnt make sense for 1 chariot to has more than that (its 2x reptiles + 2x elves). "but its a wagon - a structure" - so why other artillery pieces structures are only worth 3 wounds?
I think toughness 3/4 could be right. Its a cart so there is less "soft flesh", make sens it should last longer on full attacks.

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Darkshards crossbows

repeater crossbow should'nt be as powerful as classic one.
i think i would give them more attacks (12/7) because of multishot. And remove AP(1), because its not a crossbow... and i would also remove move penalty (reload). So they behave like soldiers with guns.

Bow is not really a weapon that allow mobility. You cannot run, hide behind wall, shoot and duck back. You can do that with crossbow. Bow has higher rate of fire, and you dont need straight line, you can shoot above own troops.
...hmm not sure if I want to fight with "wargaming biases" for the name of "realism"

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spell casting - i didnt manage to cast anything. I blame it on only 1 caster per army. Even with strong caster (2), you have 50% of chance ONLY to not waste your turn on major spell. Even when you succeed on Wizardry roll, then your opponent is making dispel. This make whole spellcasting an unreliable business.

This annoyance is actually a feature, because it creates a space for powercreep, so you can have Wizardry(3), magic items +1 Wizard, or +X Dispell only, or other boost to Wizardry, and there is some boundary. Even if you have auto-cast, then opponents weaker Magician can dispel your effort.

ofc i dont have such content in my humble ruleset.
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other Commnaders type of skills:
-pivot your other in 6" from commander unit 90 degree - this would allow to charge or shoot something, and it feels dope. That commander show them the target [name for the skill?]

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command group (standard, musician, champion)

+1 CR is lame, same as +1 Qua. It smells senile. Personally i think command group should be only decoration.

some regiments upgrades ideas:
- allow to charge 1" further
- allow to pivot 180 and move (music)
- allow to move (not rush) 1" further (music)
- allow to shoot with bow above own troops (+Indirect)
- allow to fight back with full attacks (once?), even if used activation already.
- increase Defense vs range attacks (shield wall - testudo)
- allow to flee from enemy in specific direction/ or pivot in chosen direction.
- grant regeneration (medic), if unit make Hold order.
- music, medic, scout, group leader, champion (better fighter), pets(dogs), torches (source of light, fire - not sure for what?)

[Lagi]

the system with devastated - half state of Toughness, halving attacks and number of attacks depend on having activation or not - is too complicated for OPR style - at least in my opinion.

I cross a line, where the rules complexity stop benefiting the gameplay, instead is a work to do.

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instead halving the attacks, there should be hit only on 1. It would be inline with OPR.

I should have only one value for Tough. I can manipulate +- 1 point, to show that dwarfs are tougher f.ex.

i will adjust rules, and give it a go.

[Lagi]

Yes, removing half toughness and half attacks is a great improvement. You can feel its less wearing for the brain.

I was afraid first strike will lose importance, but its still a very significant.

All units even on last wound, are strike with all dice. In some cases (strike back, flank) only hit on 1, which is great because you dont need to check for Quality.

minor draw back is block of infantry increase viability on block of 5 cavalry and heroes are penelize (if they flank infantry they face 10 dice and pray to not roll 1). But its not so game breaking, just different meta.

roll to hit only on 1. is a great rule. it benefits multi dice infantry blocks, over monsters.

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i need to make 2x No Retreat rules: one for undeads or machines, that lose 1 wound. Other for unbreakable troops. It piss me off today when dwarf hammerers suffer 3 wound from bodyguard. Also slayer.

[Lagi]

the flank charges always feels off for me. Im happy to finally find a solution that feels sensible, and its easy rule wise.

You cannot make a flank charge, if yours charging unit is not fully out of target front arch.


it plays very nice!

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i remove half toughness, and half attacks. The game is smoother. Its much easier to track multiple unit stats, there is no confusion how many dice to take. You dont need to track wounded units. Still First Strike is important for finishing off weakend units. Monster gain more power, from which im not very happy. No Hydra is a tough opponent with 6 HP, 5 Defense and Regeneration (that works always).

Blocks of infantries stay relevant even until last wound - which i like a lot. Then its a First Strikers hunt (heroes)

There are drawbacks but in general the benefits prevail.

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Instead half attacks, i use hit only on 1, which is bit too harsh. The game is more competitive, because the mistake in activation or unit placement cost more. Which I am not a fan of.

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Fleeing was simplified. Before i was turning unit that fail morale 180 degree and move back, which cause them to clash with other units or obstacles. Then there were a dance to reposition unit in next turn.

To avoid fiddling with units, now routed units are deployed again anywhere in staring zone. It looks like teleportation. But its way less messing around, and the gameplay outcome is the same, or better. Because you can quicker counter enemies at your back.

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Dark Elves - spell Blade storm with 2d6 hits its too good. I think I would nerf the amount of hits. I will check with d6+2 hit.

 

[Lagi]

dark elfes vs mummies,

i think the rules are good. I didnt encounter anything i would like to change.

If your unit was already activated, you hit back on "1-".
f.ex. you move forward, and then are charged by enemy cavalry. Because of "1-", you will probaly dont hit anything back at all.
Its competitive, I'm still not a fan. But i think its hard to come with less nerfing solution, without complicating the rules more.

I was confused few times because i forgot all the special rules. Wording and stats on Mummy cards, was from older version, or it was just a single word, and i need to check rulesheet. But its not fault of rules.

Commander rules - inspiring, leadership, command - need to be readjust.

Medusa kill Necrosphinx in 2 turn, which was interesting. She use morale for save instead defence.

Retreat rules are nice. If you failed morale, unit is teleported to starting area. I still think it works good.

Because i play without any terrain. All cover during shoting is also a Friendly Fire. DElf bolt thrower hit Medusa this way, which was funny.

Chargin rules, flanking charge rules - i still think are good. There is much more front charge, in cases that normally would be a flank one - which i find fantastic.

Impact is not a first strike - it feel odd sometimes. When cavalry with lances charge other unit, and vitim strike first.


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very little dice rolling - feels good.
the army rosters need to be clear of bugs.
the rulesheet should take more space/page and explain things better with examples.

[Lagi]

d.elves vs dwarfs

extra administration to track which unit dont attack yet - is worth it. Its much better for your slow troops to know you will be able to fight normal, instead hitting on '1', after your advance forward.

Stealth - unit need to dont block LoS for enemy charge as well. Otherwise its has a quirky use to block enemy fast units.

Dispelling need to work always on 4+ (even vs Major spells). Dwarf smith spent entire game trying to take down Darkness enchantment from Organ gun. Not fun.

add clarification that any bonus dont stack. If I cast Ethereal(2) on unit with Ethereal(1), its has only Ethereal(2) not (3).

Loner - need to have -1 to be hit in melee as well (Parry rule). It make no sense that 10 dudes hit at once your Commander. This way poor infantry will hit 50% less often (quliaty 2>1), but big monster still can pack a punch (quality 4>3). Not sure if dwarven Deamon Slayer with Parry 2, would not be too good.

Need to add: after Flee (from whatever reason) you lose any further activation this turn.

[Lagi]

Pick up this rules after a year, dwarf vs dark elves.

everything was fine. I was fighting with myself instead trying to do some game procedure.

the Wizardy rules feels out of place. normally i am trying to roll as low as possible (1 is auto hit), and here i want to reach a high threshold 4+ or 6+. Also i have written year ago that spells are shooting attack, so if i cast fireball on engage in melee units, i can hurt my own units? (following shooting rules - yes; but how would it work when there are auto hits from spells?)

Dispel attempt cancelling wizard activation, feels harsh to lose action, and i never dispel because of that. Maybe i change it to "only successful dispel attempt, spend activation" ? or maybe I include the risk before? Otherwise you could dispel with one spellcaster multiple times per round till you success.

so yeah, i think spell casting should be adjusted.

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i have situation when i was shooting to enemy regiment, behind an enemy character. Not sure how to approach it, because there are friendly fire rules. I rolls dice and every score "1"on dice, hit the character who was in Line of Fire.

maybe its unnecessary complication. But i should clarify it, what to do in this case.

[mikez]

I didn't read through all of your info, but have to say; based on the amount of info you posted, you have placed a great deal of time and energy into getting this right. Just want to commend you for this. Also, curious about how you are making your armies? I have way to much back log but would love to be able to put some armies together quicker to play. Totally love to try your modifications as well.

[Lagi]

Reading all my previous posts is detrimental. Because i post in past some rules, that i tested and I know they are not working good any more.
So sticking only to 1st post and last is best approach.

Is it right? I have made some games in the past. That I thought are brilliant. But when i play test them with other people - they reveal a BIG BIG hole in rules, or were too confusing.

Thank You.

Making armies is not cover here. I print everything that's is on A4 on 1st page = thats your army, or reduce amount of troops to your liking (both side has 2 infantry, 1 cavalry, 1 artillery). TBH perfect point balance cannot be achieved in house made game, so it is a wasted effort (if GameWorkshop cant achieve it, how can i?). 2nd there were not a single battle in history that was fair. You could probably stick to AoF point costs.

I am happy that i spark your interest. Its a bear and pretzel game, even easier than AoF i think. I hate all unnecessary dice rolling, and following dozens of procedures for narrative purpose. I hope to achieve streamline to the core, smooth gameplay.

Dont play it. It cost your time, and effort to make the armies. You are not certain if its worthy the try. You have better alternatives. 3 page rulebook looks ugly. The only thing that i think could be interesting are the flanking rules - because i nerf a lot the silly (IMO) flank charging from other games. Front clashes to the max!

[Lagi]

I test some wizard rules.

in 9age forum, DanT suggest skipping rolling for casting spells. Sounds strange in theory, but is very fun in practice, plus reduce downtime and dice work. "my grand wizard is casting magic missiles!! oh no... he dont... he was engulfed in fire instead.." - lets be honest this is pathetic, and irritating.

Whole magic dice rolling orbit around dispelling. And its tense.
You need to make a decision, do you cast spell now? or wait for enemy to have a chance to dispel him. Even if you fail dispel, then you can cast your own with impunity (unless enemy has more caster). Amount of spell cast is kept in check. One turn I just move forward, saving wizard action to try to dispel enemy spell.

to dispel: be in 18" to target or spell source; roll 4+ (dosent matter if its major or minor spell, nor dispelling unit stats).
If you successfully dispel enemy spell, your caster spend activation, if not he can cast later.
You can also dispel, if your wizard move, but dont attack/shoot/cast spell. Same like with melee rules.

wizard have only 2 levels (Wizard or Grand Wizard). Either he has access to 3 minor spells, or he can cast also 3x major one (6 total). Hmm.. there could be as well 0 level, that will allow only to dispel ("Spellbreaker"?).

what if I cast into engaged units? roll d6 - value of 6 mean you hit own troops. Same rule like friendly fire shooting.

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during game i notice that im overusing the same spells. I think i will make cards for each spell next time. And you will not be able to cast the same util you run out of other spell options (take cards back to hand).

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i have a clash of Ratogres with Dark Elf Riders. The amount of HP is very odd. Ratogres as minor monster have 9 Tough, but there is only 3 of them.... while Riders have 5 Hp, and there are 5 riders and 5 horses (horse weight about 1 tone, so its even bigger than Ratogre).
Warhammer balance that by +1 Armor Save, which doesnt make any sense (unit should rather have reduced armor, as more exposed flesh of horse is available for the blow).

I think I give horse units 2 HP => 1 for rider + 1 for mount. This also make narrative sense. If during battle they kill 2 horses and 3 riders, then the dismounted Rider can use his dead friend's horses, and reinforced the unit.

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Spell balance

Dark Elfes have spell Despair : make Flee check, then target get -2 Morale permanent enchant.

I use it to completely disrupt Skaven army. I easily nullify even the most powerful units. Even if in my ruleset, failed Morale do not remove the unit from game, being forced to reposition it to deploy area, basically render it insignificant (game last about 5 round).

hmm... i think with limit of 1 cast, due to Spell Cards, will even things out.

[Lagi]

i play a little game with 2x wizards per each side.

To be consistent with other rules. I roll 3- to dispel (instead 4+).

Friendly fire additional roll of 6 is not a problem, and it nicely increases excitement - and this risk! oh boy do I obliterate enemy regiment? or my own? Doesn't matter because I just send cheap skellies.

Multiple attempt to dispel 1 spell are ok (1s wizard try to dispel - fail, 2nd wizard try and roll again). Much better than forcing multiple wizards to waste turn for dispel attempt - that would be MEGA not fun.

Spell limit to 1 cast is very good! It forces to wisely cast spells. It increases the tactics. Sometimes i focus on dispel, otherwise i let enemy enchant own troops, to be able to cast my own spell later.

50% of the time Wizards are casting some spells, but they are dispelled. This gives the feeling that great mage battles are ongoing - fire ball exploding on some magic shields above warriors heads. And this is good because i prefer magic to be just touch up to fantasy battles, not a deciding factor.

With failed dispels NOT taking activation, there is nice feeling of revenge. You failed to dispel, you eat some Desiccation that fortunately didnt kill your main RuneSmith. Your wizard is the last one in the round, and you know opponent cannot dispel it. So you check available spells, you see Rune Of Storm still available. And you laugh like a maniac. :-D

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Cavalry with 10 wounds, instead 5 - works much better. they are still meh because in non charge situation only deal 5 attacks (usually). But they not so squishy anymore.

[Lagi]

i buy 10mm miniatures

not painted minis already looks great. setup time is much longer than with cardboard. But its just looks fantastic, feels like fantasy battle.
i played 38mm scale before, but then everything is just too big. Take too many spaces. with 10mm i have easy time reach anything on table. And its just feel better, like a proper battle, not a skirmish for carrots at the back of a tavern.

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my rules are not very good for massive battle.

1st. the unit cards. I suppose to print cards for each unit, and then handle this deck of cards. Deck of cards is ok for skirmish, but its still an effort to make one, design, print, cut. And you need to do it each time.

I think i need to ditch card activation idea, because it doesnt work well with bigger armies.

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one me - one you activation = still works great! Much better than moving multiple own units at once.

A little friction here is with shooting and melee being included each time you activate unit. Its just slow, rolling dice, checking stats, checking morale, doing retreats. Maybe i will make phase: do all movement, do all shooting, do all melee.

all movement one by one is perfect.
not sure how to do shooting - and how to do spell casting with dispells.
melee would be fine, just resolve one by one each clash of units.

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wound tokens (red dice) are taking lots of attention on board. Maybe i need smaller dice?

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i just play 2 rounds, and it take lots of time.

hmm... also avarage 10x dice per roll is a bit too much? Could i be able to halve it?

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in general im happy, i would try to remade the rules so they smooth enough with big Warmaster like battles.

[Lagi]

I deploy all plastic I have (2000 pts of warmaster armies). It take me 40min to set all up. Then I make 4x action with both side, roll some dice, realize how little the dice affecting battle outcome and decide it is too much units.


Every single activation, I need to roll multiple times ten dice. For this scale of game, a single dice roll per unit would be fine. But its not my cup of tea. However I like very much 10mm scale.

anyway, I come to conclusion what game I like to play:
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army should consist of 5 to 15 units
multibase unit - i dont want to check which miniature is touching what, nor fiddle with regiments miniatures during game.
hero don't join units - to simplify game, they are hiding behind units anyway
roll low - compare dice score with stats, it's a way to go. It irks when lower numbers are better.
one my, one you unit activation - hate waiting half hour observing how my forces get decimated/objective taken, because of single dice roll who-goes-first.
use deck of cards to track activation - placing and taking markers is significant effort, also markers litter table, so it looks less nice. Cards remind about unit stats.
each round is start by random player - this one more dice roll is needed, to avoid silly meta with counting units to go first.


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Fear - special rule, allowing to win ties in melee is just +0.5 Combat Resolution. Feels artificial. Much more flavour is "enemy need to pass Morale, when they charge You, or they stop the charge half the way". This would also work as form of defensive shield, for monsters.

You can cast 1 spell type, until other spells are cast as well. All spell cast is successful, dont roll dice. There is no chance for friendly fire, you can blast enemy even engage in melee. Dice are roll only for dispel attempt. Failed dispel dont take activation.

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Spears feels negligible with current First Strike. Maybe I would remove it all together, and go back to Dangerous Terrain?
if so what about great weapons?

Command group:
banner +1CR
music +1" for advance movement (but not fur Rush)
champion - +1 attack dice
medic - heal 1 wound, if unit hold

... different armies could have different add-ons.